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Democracy Now! Exclusive: Wesley Clark Admits Targeting Civilians
In Yugoslavia
8:01-8:06 Headlines
8:06-8:07 One Minute Music Break
8:07-8:20 Democracy Now! Exclusive: Wesley Clark
Admits Targeting Civilians In Yugoslavia
INTRO: In a Democracy Now! exclusive, General Wesley Clark
responds for the first time to in-depth questions about his
targeting of civilian infrastructure in Yugoslavia, his bombing
of Radio Television Serbia, the use of cluster bombs and depleted
uranium, the speeding-up of the cockpit video of a bombing
of a passenger train to make it appear as though it was an
accident and other decisions he made and orders he gave as
NATO's Supreme Allied Commander.
Since the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia, General Wesley Clark
has not answered any in-depth questions about his targeting
of civilian infrastructure in Yugoslavia, his bombing of Radio
Television Serbia, the use of cluster bombs and depleted uranium,
the speeding-up of the cockpit video of a bombing of a passenger
train to make it appear as though it was an accident and other
decisions he made and orders he gave as NATO's Supreme Allied
Commander.
With the New Hampshire primary just 24 hours away, the remaining
Democratic candidates are in their final push to win votes
in the key poll in the Granite state. Whether or not Howard
Dean wins or loses, he set the tone very early for what has
become a definitive issue in the race early on: opposition
to the war in Iraq. Among the Democrats, Dennis Kucinich,
Al Sharpton and Carol Moseley Braun held the most clear antiwar
stances. But Braun has pulled out of the race, Al Sharpton
is not in New Hampshire and Dennis Kucinich - well the media
hardly gives him any airtime.
With the exception of Senator Joseph Lieberman, all of the
candidates have sought to portray themselves as opponents
of the war. But only Kucinich has announced a concrete plan
for withdrawing US forces from Iraq. The theme of Iraq is
the main issue on which General Wesley Clark is running his
campaign.
- Gen. Wesley Clark, speaking at a rally in Portsmouth,
New Hampshire on January 24, 2004.
Clark portrays himself as the antiwar warrior and his rhetoric
against the war has escalated significantly over the past
week of campaigning in New Hampshire. At his campaign stops,
he has been saying regularly, "The war is wrong."
This is not always what he said as one voter pointed out
to him onstage.
- Gen. Wesley Clark, responding to a voter asking about
his previous comments on Iraq as a CNN commentator.
This is in sharp contrast to statements Clark made as a commentator
on CNN before the bombing last year. In January, Clark told
CNN, "He [Hussein] does have weapons of mass destruction."
When asked, "And you could say that categorically?"
Clark responded: "Absolutely."
In February, Clark told CNN, "The credibility of the
United States is on the line, and Saddam Hussein has these
weapons and so, you know, we're going to go ahead and do this
and the rest of the world's got to get with us...The U.N.
has got to come in and belly up to the bar on this. But the
president of the United States has put his credibility on
the line, too. And so this is the time that these nations
around the world, and the United Nations, are going to have
to look at this evidence and decide who they line up with."
Immediately following the fall of Baghdad to US forces, Clark
responded to a question about finding the alleged weapons
of mass destruction, saying: "I think they will be found.
There's so much intelligence on this."
But as Clark speaks out about the war in Iraq, his own record
in a different war is almost never examined. That is his role
as the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO during the 78 day
bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. Sure, the Clark campaign promotes
this in its TV ads - but they say that he liberated a nation
and ended a genocide. Clark mentions it often in his stump
speeches and the debates. But as a qualification to be commander-in-chief.
What is not discussed is what Clark actually did when he
was running a war.
Democracy Now! correspondent Jeremy Scahill covered the 78
day bombing of Yugoslavia from the ground in 1999, the war
Clark was leading as the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.
Jeremy is now in New Hampshire and joins us on the line from
Concord, New Hampshire.
- Jeremy Scahill, Democracy Now! correspondent speaking
from Concord, New Hampshire.
Since the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia, General Wesley Clark
has not answered any in-depth questions about his targeting
of civilian infrastructure in Yugoslavia, his bombing of Radio
Television Serbia, the use of cluster bombs and depleted uranium,
the speeding-up of the cockpit video of a bombing of a passenger
train to make it appear as though it was an accident and other
decisions he made and orders he gave as NATO's Supreme Allied
Commander.
This weekend, we had a chance to ask Clark some questions
he has never faced before. After a rally where Clark was filming
a TV commercial for his campaign, Jeremy and I made our way
to the stage. As we attempted to question General Clark, we
were told by his press people that he would not be taking
questions from reporters. As he was heading backstage, Jeremy
approached Clark.
- Gen. Wesley Clark, being questioned by Democracy Now!
correspondent Jeremy Scahill.
TRANSCRIPT:
JEREMY SCAHILL: In Yugoslavia, you used cluster bombs and
depleted uranium, I want to know if you are president, will
you vow not to use them.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I will use whatever it takes that's
legal to protect the men and women against force.
JEREMY SCAHILL: Even against civilians in the marketplace?
Why bomb Radio Television Serbia? Why did you bomb Radio Television
Serbia? You killed 16 media workers, sir.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They were-[in audible - Interview interrupted
by another questioner.]
That was Clark making an exit off the stage. We followed
him as he left the theater and walked down the streets of
Portsmouth, New Hampshire, shaking hands, signing autographs,
talking to potential voters. As he was entering a business
establishment, Jeremy Scahill again approached the General.
- Gen. Wesley Clark, being questioned by Democracy Now!
correspondent Jeremy Scahill.
TRANSCRIPT:
JEREMY SCAHILL: General Clark, on that issue of the bombing
of Radio Television Serbia, Amnesty International called it
a war crime.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Excuse me -- I'm not --
JEREMY SCAHILL: Amnesty called it a war crime and it's condemned
by all journalist organizations in the world. It killed makeup
artists.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I want to answer this fellow. Because
the truth was that that -- first of all, we gave warnings
to Milosevic that that was going to be struck. I personally
called the CNN reporter and had it set up so that it would
be leaked, and Milosevic knew. He had the warning because
after he got the warning, he actually ordered the western
journalists to report there as a way of showing us his power,
and we had done it deliberately to sort of get him accustomed
to the fact that he better start evacuating it. There were
actually six people who were killed, as I recall.
JEREMY SCAHILL: There were 16.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I recall six.
JEREMY SCAHILL: I was there at the time and I knew the families.
They do hold Milosevic accountable and they also hold you
accountable, sir.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They were ordered to stay there.
JEREMY SCAHILL: And they were makeup artists, and they were
engineers, and they were technicians
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I remember reading the story, but I
want to tell you about it.
JEREMY SCAHILL: Amnesty International said you committed
a war crime by bombing that.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was all looked at by the International
Criminal Tribunal crime by Yugoslavia. All of my actions were
examined and they were all upheld by the highest law in the
United States.
JEREMY SCAHILL: And you think a media outlet is a legitimate
target?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, but when it is used as command
and control, it is. But then
JEREMY SCAHILL: Even if it kills…
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Now wait a minute, you have to let
me finish and then I will let you finish.
JEREMY SCAHILL: Go ahead.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: What I said is, we would give them
the warnings. It was part of the command and control systems.
It was approved as a legitimate target under the laws of land
warfare and went through the U.S. Government. That was the
basis on which we struck. We actually called the bombers back
one time, because there was still -- it was still unclear
to us that we weren't absolutely certain. What we know is
that Milosevic ordered them to stay there, and it was wrong,
but I was doing my duty, and I have been looked at by the
law, so -- I mean, I respect Amnesty International. I think
they're a good organization, but --
JEREMY SCAHILL: But do you feel any remorse for the killing
of civilians that you essentially were overseeing?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, I do.
JEREMY SCAHILL: And what about the bombing of the Nis marketplace
with cluster bombs, shredding human beings.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was terrible, but you know in that
instance, if we had got the same incident, there was a cluster
bomb that opened prematurely. It was an accident. And every
one of these incidents was fully investigated. All of the
material from the Yugoslavian government was given to the
International Criminal Tribunal, plus as the NATO commander,
I made a full report to the International Criminal Tribunal.
It was all investigated. The pilots who did it, nobody could
have felt worse than the pilots who did it. And I got a letter
from a man in Serbia who said you killed my granddaughter
on a schoolyard at Nis. I know how he must have felt. And
I felt so helpless about it. Every night before I let those
bombs go, I prayed we wouldn't kill innocent people. But unfortunately,
when you are at war, terrible things happen, even when you
don't want them to. You can't imagine what those pilots felt
like in those convoys when they struck the convoys. You remember
the convoys?
JEREMY SCAHILL: In Gurdulica were the 72 Albanians were killed.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: In that place, too. And they had flown
over it a couple of times. You know, we just -- we were trying
to establish some kind of communications on the ground with
the Albanians. The Serbs were on the nets, and they were jamming
all of the communications, and they were doing imitative communications
deception. And nobody could get the truth about it. We saw
the Serb vehicles around the place. And I didn't make the
decision, but they were following orders on my command. And
it was looked at, and so forth. The decision was made as a
legitimate target. It turned out that they had been ordered
to stay in there by the Serbs. The Serbs were surrounding
the place to keep them penned in. It was horrible. You never
forget stuff like that. That's why when this government has
used force as it has, it makes me so angry. Because these
people in the White House don't understand -- you don't use
force except as a last, last, last resort.
JEREMY SCAHILL: On April 12th you targeted a passenger train,
and then you showed a video that was sped up at three time
the speed. Why?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think -- first of all, the passenger
train was not targeted. The pilot's instructions were to go
after a bridge, and not the train. He felt, as he launched
that missile, that all of a sudden at the very last minute,
the train suddenly came into his field of view. I showed the
tape. I did not know that the tape was accelerated. I don't
think it was three times. I think it was one-and-a-half times.
Whatever it was, it was going faster than the actual speed.
It made it look like it was --
JEREMY SCAHILL: But the Supreme Court Commander, you are
ultimately responsible for all of the information that came
out.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's true. I was.
JEREMY SCAHILL: What the actual in real-time speed showed
is that the pilot actually moved the target so that it would
hit the train.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't have that information.
JEREMY SCAHILL: 12 people were killed, including an orthodox
priest.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's terrible. But, I don't have
the information. When I looked at it, we didn't see that.
All of the material was sent to The Hague and they did not
see that either.
JEREMY SCAHILL: Do you think you owe the people of Serbia
who died in that war an apology?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I don't because I did my duty as
the commander for NATO and for the United States. I think
Slobodan Milosevic owes the people of Serbia an apology, because
we acted to prevent regional destabilization, and to be honest,
when you take the kinds of actions that he has done, he was
the proximate cause. All we tried to do was head off the ethnic
cleansing through diplomacy, and basically, he had a plan
to go to war, no matter what.
JEREMY SCAHILL: But now the U.S. is supporting a regime of
ethnic cleansing in Kosovo where all minorities have been
forced out, including almost every single Serb.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well you know, we are trying very hard
not to allow that to happen. And we have worked very hard
with the Kosovo Albanians and the Serbs, but to be honest
with you that regime that's north of the Ibar River is a regime
that wants to prevent Serbs from living peacefully with Kosovo
Albanians. So, both sides have to share the blame. They have
been under the control of Seselj and also some under Milosevic
and their tactic in 1999 was to provoke the retaliation by
the Albanians to be able to blame the Albanians for reverse
ethnic cleansing. There were -- there were crimes on both
sides and they needed to be investigated. To the best of my
ability as NATO commander at the time, we did.
JEREMY SCAHILL: But then why -- you have a man like Agim
Ceku in power, a man who was responsible for the ethnic cleansing
of the Serbs at Kraina, a man trained by MPRI in Virginia.
Why put a man like that in charge? What kind of message does
that send to ethnic minorities in Kosovo, when a man who is
a basically a war criminal is in charge of what is going to
be the future army in Kosovo.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, we looked at his record and it's
not clear that he's going to be in charge of the future army
of Kosovo. He did receive instruction from a contracted U.S.
firm at MPRI. He received basic information after he became
there in charge of the Kosovo protective corps. We thought
that was the best way to maintain order and security in the
country.
JEREMY SCAHILL: Has been accused of hate speech by the United
Nations.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Lots of people in that part of the
world have been accused of hate speech, and they shouldn't
do it. I met with Agim Ceku a few times when I was over there,
and I told him who I thought about it. I don't accept that
language.
JEREMY SCAHILL: Do you think that he should be in a position
of power in Kosovo?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you know, I'm so far removed
from the issues right now --
JEREMY SCAHILL: But you know him.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But I can’t – yeah –
I know him, but what I have seen of him, he is the one of
the more reasonable people in that region.
JEREMY SCAHILL: Because in your ads you say you liberated
a nation. And that’s why I am asking you this question.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The thing is I have got to talk to
some other voters. Is that okay? Can you excuse me?
JEREMY SCAHILL: Absolutely. Thank you very much.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I am trying to answer all your questions.
JEREMY SCAHILL: Thank you I appreciate it. Thank you for
being patient with me.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: General Wesley Clark answering the questions
of Democracy Now! correspondent Jeremy Scahill. The significance
of that last figure, Jeremy?
JEREMY SCAHILL: I asked him about a man named Agim Ceku,
who is going to be the future head of the army. Agim Ceku
was an Albania commander from the United States backed Kosovo
liberation army. In the 1990's, he was trained as I said there
by the U.S. paramilitary firm, Military Professional Resources
Inc., which is based in Virginia. They called him a model
soldier. He took his training that he got from the U.S. Firm
and he used it against Serbs during the war, the civil war
in Yugoslavia. In August 1995, he was a commander of the four-day
blitzkrieg in Kraina, in Kroatia, in which more than a quarter
of million Serbs were forcibly expelled from their homes in
a four-day period. The New York Times called it the single
greatest ethnic cleansing of the war. He has now been put
into a position of incredible power in Kosovo and Wesley Clark
was one of the people who hand-picked him. And the bigger
point in all of this is that as President Bush is criticized
for the atrocious situation in Iraq right now, we have to
remember that Wesley Clark led a 67-day bombing that was not
approved by the UN. That targeted civilians and that ultimately
left a region of the world destabilized and with tens of thousands
of U.S. forces still deployed.
AMY GOODMAN: Jeremy Scahill reporting to us from New Hampshire.
Certainly not among the issues raised by Wesley Clark supporters
at Music Hall Saturday where he was making his commercial.
Maybe related to the lack of coverage of this issue, but right
now, we're going to hear from some of those supporters waiting
for Wesley Clark to make his entrance Saturday.
Democracy Now! Travels Around New Hampshire Speaking To Candidates
and Voters
Democracy Now! traveled to New Hampshire Saturday and spent
the weekend criss-crossing the state from Portsmouth to Nashua,
Manchester to Concord.
With the nation’s first primary just days away, people
from across New Hampshire and the country braved bitter cold
weekend temperatures and took to the streets in towns and
cities across New Hampshire to lend support to their candidate
of choice.
Voters held up signs, gave loud whoops of encouragement to
passing cars and dominated speaking events and rallies.
We spoke with some of Gen. Wesley Clark’s supporters
awaiting his arrival at a planned rally in Portsmouth and
we heard from Howard Dean supporters who crowded the streets
outside the event.
The Democracy Now! team then piled into cars and drove to
the neighboring New Hampshire town of Nashua where we met
with one of the Democratic presidential candidates –
Rep. Dennis Kucinich. We sat down to a half-hour long interview
with Congressman Kucinich in his hotel room. He spoke about
his campaign, the invasion and occupation of Iraq, corporate
media, and much more.
Rep. Dennis Kucinich, along with all the other Democratic
presidential candidates - except the Rev. Al Sharpton - accepted
the invitations to speak to the 100 Club dinner in the Sheraton
hotel in Nashua. We raced over to the Sheraton where more
than a thousand people packed into a ballroom to hear the
candidates’ speak. We play excerpts from Howard Dean
and Senator Joseph Lieberman.
On Sunday, we drove again to Nashua to hear Senators John
Kerry and John Edwards - who came in first and second in the
Iowa caucuses - address packed crowds at separate rallies
in the town.
8:58-8:59 Outro and Credits
For a copy of today’s program, call 1 (800) 881 2359.
Our website is www.democracynow.org.
Our email address is mail@democracynow.org.
Democracy Now! is produced by Mike Burke, Sharif Abdel Kouddous,
Ana Nogueira, Elizabeth Press, Jeremy Scahill and Parvez Sharma.
Mike Di Filippo is our engineer.
Thanks also to Uri Galed, Angela Alston, Orlando Richards,
Simba Russeau, Johnny Sender, Rich Kim, Joe Murgio, John Randolph,
Chris Zucker, Karen Ranucci, Denis Moynihan, Eric Rweyemamu,
Jenny Filipazzo and Isis Phillips.
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